The Ladyboy Conundrum

[guydesavoy]

(pacman @ Jan. 03 2011,09:26) But that still doesn't explain the quite varied & exotic look of some of them.

Most of the LBs I have known closely (read failed relationship) have come from 'normal' BKK families from varying social strata, Humble to Hi-So.

In each case hormones came in rather late. Maybe late teens or even early college. I can't speak for the Essarn girls, but what I have observed in my BKK experiences, and having seen the 'before' and 'after', is that the hormones have made an amazing transformation. Perhaps there was a pre-existing state that facilitated this metamorphosis. Ziggy would know about that and there would no doubt be a thread or two in that connexion in the old Academia Section.

I have one particular LB in mind. If I were to post the before and now pics (before being around age 16, the now being 20) not only would I be hunted down and shot, but it would blow your mind and put to shame any hottie currently on view here. Yes, even my beloved Pookie And yes, she doesn't look Thai now...although both parents most definitely are.

I don't know how these ugly caterpillars turn to beautiful butterflies in sometimes a very short time frame. I also don't know about the existence or otherwise of an Essarn/Rice Farmer Cabal manufacturing LBs for profit.

It seems there are many pieces to this puzzle and they may not all necessarily belong to the same set

[rxpharm]

Ahh, the skirmish has begun! Good stuff!

Pacman, how many photos have you seen of lbs when they were very young - at the pre teen years mark? It's not often that we have the chance to see these photos and I have had the opportunity to do so for a number of lbs.

If your theory is correct, the young lbs should look quite feminine already, being forced to start hormones at an early age. What I saw were photos of young boys, some even members of the Boy Scouts.

When I've asked lbs at what age they have started hormones - the common response has been around 16-18 years old, with the occasional one around 11 years of age. There are photos of beauty contest winners like Nong Poy and Nong Film around on the net when they were young, and they also appear to be normal young boys. (Thai television seem to love doing this for their interviews!).

Have you noticed quite a number of lbs are often taller than the average Thai male, with longer hands, feet and at times longer canine teeth?

My theory is that when they start hormones in their teen years it extends the growth spurt so it is longer than normal compared to a boy or a girl. A normal boy's pubertal growth spurt starts around 11 to 16 while a girl's growth spurt is around 9-14. Most of the time they are not taking large enough doses to completely inhibit male hormone production, nor started early enough to simulate the female adolescent growth spurt and suppress the male growth spurt. So you end up with a growth pattern that is longer than normal. Of course this is all a theory and I doubt it will be proven. This also is affected by the inherited genetics of the child.

It does seem that lbs nowadays are starting hormones at even younger ages, getting advice from their older "sisters". They have an advantage and if taking the right amount (not too much or too little and starting at the right age) will feminize almost the same as a normal girl.

You are also forgetting about the highly experienced Thai plastic surgeons who can do some amazing things - think about Nong Toom who started her transition quite late since she was earning money for her SRS winning Muay Thai matches. She looks quite feminine now.

As for the Hung Angel discussion - it began when one of the board members had some plastic surgery done in Thailand. She had some casual discussions with another foreign patient who opined this was the reason why Thai lbs were more feminine and passable than western ones. The conspiracy theory is widespread it seems!

[Tomcat]

(pacman @ Jan. 03 2011,09:26) Perhaps an extra chromosome appears sporadically due to centuries of inbreeding

Due to the fact that one assumes that Ladyboys dont have kids i cant see how they can pass on any Genes that may give rise to a linage more  disposed to transexuality. Its an evolutionary dead end. Thats assuming its nature and not nurture. Having said that there are now theories that epigenetic changes due to the enviroment can have effects on the gametes giving rise to some conditions. In other words it may be something in the water ( i doubt it)

If you take an average classroom of five year olds in say UK and the same for Issan i would guess that both would have some effeminate boys. In any school there are usually always at least one per classroom in my experience or maybe around one in sixty in the school that i went to. But due to the fact that culture in Issan is different from East London its more likely that the culture in Issan is more accomodating  to Ladyboys

1) In Thailand its part of the culture anyway
2) the parents perhaps influencing things ( see above) ao that any effeminate boy is far more likely to make it to Ladyboy stage

In other words its probably Isaan culture that is the main reason.  Thats what culture means deos it not. Some cultures put hoops around their necks, in Issan they grow Ladyboys. Why do certain aspects of cultures persist , well i think you need a degree in some " ology" or other to answer that one. Maybe its in the "Memes" ( not genes)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memes


Im not going to explain what Culture means as there are plenty of sources but i think this is the first port of call investigating this conjecture.

[moe666]

How do you spot someone with low testosterone, baby face is usually a dead give away not enough during puberty. Also women with small breast tend to be low on estrogen. This is all from the text of Dr. Theary Hueogre a know expert on Hormones and there replacement.

The combination of low testosterone and added estrogen does wonderful things

[jimslim]

(pacman @ Jan. 03 2011,09:26) Why are there so many ladyboys in LOS, particularly from the poorest part of the country, Issan?

We don't really know that for sure , because the ladyboys we meet tend to be prostitutes it follows they will come from the poorest region which is Issan .

There are lots of ladyboys all over Thailand in all walks of life but the ones we meet in Pattaya or Bangkok have migrated from the poorer regions purely for economic reasons .

On why there are so many ladyboys in Thailand I'm convinced it is cultural rather than genetic modification , the belief in a third sex goes back centuries .

I also believe that this culture then gives someone who is already homosexual the choice to live as a ladyboy or a gay man , in the west in most cases the choice is only to be a gay man .

One ladyboy who I know pretty well referred to a group of what I would have classed as rather camp Thai men as ladyboys one time .
I argued that they were not ladyboys because they dressed and looked like men , she laughed and told me I didn't understand , they were "queens" who wanted to be ladyboys but were not pretty enough or had a sister to teach them and had missed their chance .

Fair play to you brother Pacman on starting an interesting debate , I doubt we will ever truly get to the bottom of it all because it will only be based on opinions and not fact but it should be interesting none the less

[Bumpa STIKKA]

There are many factors in favour of Thai boys who want to become Thai girls.

Early exposure to hormones is NOT one of them... neither is inbreeding or geographical origin.

Asian male physiques are more predisposed to 'look the part.'

Family and social acceptance is more common in Thailand.

As Thailand is not a 'macho' based society then more people will come forward to express their sexuality whatever it is.

There are more role models to follow in Thailand making it simply easier to do.

The availability of drugs and surgery to help with the process is more widespread in Asia.

There are NOT any mad old grannies force-feeding the 'chosen ones' hormones in 'Deliverance' country Issan!

This reminds me of the insane thread that an ex member started a few years ago saying that all the trannies in India were operating on themselves...!

[kahuna]

My two cents...And there is nothing emperical about my observations...So take my comments as opinion only...

First, I personally don't believe Paccie and Tomcat are far off the mark...

I had occasion several years past to spend several months in a small village near Yasothon with a ladyboy and her extended family...

The enclave, where kinship was reckoned through paternal links, was composed of members who, with the exception of several wives and husbands were all consanguines...

There were perhaps 10 children varying in age from 2 to 15 running around the compound...

The interesting point for this discussion is that her two-year-old male cousin was already labeled as a ladyboy...They painted his fingernails red and taught him the Isaan dances that are traditionally preformed only by females...What they saw in this little lad I could never see...But I was told numerous times that the ladyboy I was with behaved like he did at two-years of age and was raised much the same way...She confirmed that..What he grows to be will be his choice...But the ladyboy seeds were already well planted...By whom I never found out...But his parents certainly didn't appear to mind...And he had two older sisters who helped with his girliness...

On occasion some ladyboy friends would visit and when the youger ladyboy was about I took the liberty of asking questions...With only one exception, I was told that they too were identified and raised as a ladyboy at a very young age...

When you ask a ladyboy bar worker she will tell you she was 13 or so when she knew...Perhaps they are only telling us what we want they think we want to hear...

Of course most of you would prefer to believe that the majority of Thai ladyboys are truly transgendered beings and not gay boys in costume...And that's understandable...You want to feel good about yourself...To feel good you have convinced yourself that you are involved with a beautiful lady trapped in a man's body...In my opinion that is clearly not the case...Moreover, I am likewise not convinced that the majority of Thai ladyboys view themselves as anything other than a Thai ladyboy...

In short, I firmly believe as does Paccie and Tomcat that the majority of Thai ladyboys are products of their sociocultural system...Nothing more...Nothing less...Pretty boys all...

[TEXASMAC]

On my last visit which was the first time I met Pacman he explained to me the Issam theory. I at first thought it was a strange theory but now I am not sure. One night about 4:00 am I walked from the Penthouse hotel down to Soi 6. I have a hard time sleeping. I met one sweet LB who I short timed for 3 hours ( 2 hours talking) and she told me of her life in Issam and how she was sent to Pattaya at 16 to work and take care of family. She was 21 and to me it semed like to her family she was an asset to be used. It was strange and it showed me I have so much to learn about Thailand. I was raised by my family to go to college ( the first). Different culture different raising. Pacman gave me lots to think about.

[newatthis]

Interesting topic and one I have often wondered about. The relatively high frequency of LB's present in Thailand has surprised me many times. Not the least of which was a high school aged LB motorcycle  "gang"  of 6 or 7 riding classic Honda 50cc replicas at the Erawan Cave in Loei. I wanted to take a photo but it didn't look like such a good  a good idea at the time.

In my LB GF's village they are fairly common. I don't have a percentage or number but you will frequently see one. I went to the local restaurant and had 3 waitresses stand by ready to mix our drinks and 2 were LB's (looking good and ready for action I might add). She has a number of LB's friends in town as well and most in her age range.

Although my sample size may be small I have asked many LB's when they first thought they were LB's and the answer often is when they first went to school. The degree of acceptance by the parents has varied. My GF was lucky and her mother realized very early on and just flowed with it. I have seen her photo at 5 years old and she looked feminine.

I believe the levels of environmental toxicity in Thailand are linked to endocrine changes during growth of future LB's. Not all of them of course but a quick Google search will show that this can occur in animals with pesticides and other industrial compounds. I tried to post a link for this but couldn't do it successfully.

Spending some time in a village will reveal lots of pesticides in the local population's life - from spraying their houses to kill mosquitoes  to eating crabs and frogs and rats (well, at least in Issan) from the pesticide laced rice fields. I cringe every time they eat  fish they catch in the local man-made ponds. I don't know exactly what a lab analysis would show but I am sure it would be something to avoid. I haven't had any success in convincing them to stop eating the fish.

I agree that in Thailand "gay" boys have the option to be LB's and some of them follow that path. In Western countries it's not such an easy option to pursue.

Well, that's my 2 cents anyway.
Cheers

[transcebu]

Just wanted to add an interesting piece of anecdotal evidence, regarding the high concentrations of transwomen and gays in the Philippines.

In my partner's boys school, 28 of the 120 boys in her year were openly gay and members of a gay club. 4 of those now live as women. This may be an extreme case for a school there, but it's unimaginable in the west for their to be such numbers and such openness regarding sexual orientation and gender expression.

I've never heard of a parent there encouraging such things, but families tend to be more welcoming as most the girls I've met seem to have multiple gay, lesbian or trans uncles, aunties, cousins etc.

I knew of one family, where the father hated gays and all 5 sons were openly gay and/or trans. Another which had 4 lesbian daughters and the boy became a transwoman. The mother said she was cursed.

Could malnutrition be a factor, or is that just what people want to be when society is more accepting of it? Seems to be a South East Asian phenomenon.

[newatthis]

Transcebu
Those are some remarkable statistics. What I said about environmental toxins would apply to th P.I as well. When I asked my LB GF why there were so many LB's in her village she jokingly replied "It's the water".  It may have been more  accurate than she realized.  In my post I didn't discuss the number of gays because it isn't as easy for me to notice them but they are certainly present.

[TTChang]

(rxpharm @ Jan. 03 2011,17:12) Have you noticed quite a number of lbs are often taller than the average Thai male, with longer hands, feet and at times longer canine teeth?

Yes, that's always intrigued me .... I've liked tall GGs since I was in my teens, so I was a good candidate for the LB scene.  Your theory sounds quite possible/probable to me, Rx, altho many of the tall ones didnt seem to start as early hormone takers.

Fortunately, my liking for paperboy asses doesn't mean I have to convince myself about anything, Kahuna, whether I'm in Obsession BKK with the girly ones or in Corner Bar with you ... checking on the passing Sunee trade     I think I've gone well past the   point of justifying what I do (to myself or anyone else). I just accept a Third Sex.  I've not had the Isaan visit experience you have, but it doesnt surprise me that the LBs are spotted very early, and that their upbringing from then on influences events.  My experience with bar LBs differs to yours though, in that most say that they knew by age 4 or 5.  But that could well be because they are conditioned by grandmum .... with the nail painting etc, playing with dolls etc

Last night I asked my Chinese/Thai friend about all this.  Maybe I'm over-influenced by her life story.  She first started showing LB traits at age 3 or 4 apparently.  Wanted to try on her mum's shoes, paint her nails, etc - but was smacked round the ears by grandmum, mum, and esp dad whenever she showed any LB traits.  A BKK born LB, she lived with parents and was not allowed to take hormones until she was about 19/20.  She was regularly thrashed by her Dad, who felt that the family lost face having his only son as LB.  Only finally accepted by Dad after she had boobs (courtesy of TT falang!) ..... and when Dad's mates started commenting on his beautiful daughter (also courtesy of nose job, nose job correction, and botox).  

But she still has a paperboy ass ....  

[Tomcat]

I think you have to separate the factors out as it can get confusing

1) why do guys become Ladyboys
2) Why are there so many in Thailand
3) Why do there seem to be more in Issan than elsewhere in LOS

It must be a balance between nature and nurture in the end and maybe they are so entwined that its will be difficult to differentiate between the two.

for the Genetic part
Human beings are after all just a long complicated molecule called DNA that gives rise to Genes and Scientists are a long long way off trying to figure out how Genes give rise to certain traits and how the enviroment can effect these traits. Actualy the Human Genome project was a bit of a damp squib on this score. No big advances have been made and in this area i doubt if there is any interest in trying to find any Ladyboy Genes

So take Culture + DNA and you have the answer. Maybe in 25 years time it will all be figured out to an exact degree but not now. Have any studies been done in that last 10 years...i doubt it..and i dont see anyone conducting any in the near future either.

[kahuna]

(TTChang @ Jan. 04 2011,14:34) Fortunately, my liking for paperboy asses doesn't mean I have to convince myself about anything, Kahuna, whether I'm in Obsession BKK with the girly ones or in Corner Bar with you ... checking on the passing Sunee trade    

I certainly didn't intend to suggest that as wrong for one to believe in...Only as an explanation for the majority of BMs opinions here and on most other ladyboy boards...

As for me...I'm   ..................

[guydesavoy]

Speaking of paperboy asses, I miss Nang Faa's input