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  • Berdache

    Just finished a fairly exhaustive study on the native North American Indian berdache, or transsexuals of those days, for my book. For those of you academically inclined...

    Berdache were recognized and accepted in virtually all NA Indian tribes. They often cross-dressed, behaved like women, spoke like women, and married men. Basically, Ladyboys. They married men, and those men were NOT considered homosexual, because berdache were considered to be neither male nor female but having "two spirits"; more precisely, the best of both worlds, literally, having skills of both men and women.

    Their primary difference with LBs was that they were also viewed as having spiritual skills, and were used in healing ceremonies, births, deaths, and sometimes held an elevated status in tribes.

    The lovely Christian European explorers forced the Indians to stop the practice, starting with a Spanish explorer, de Vaca, in about 1540, in the "slaughter of the berdache". The last berdache disappeared in about the 1940s or so.

    Today, native Indians use the term Two-Spirit to refer to gays, lesbians, bisexual, and transsexual (and berdache). If you search the internet for berdache or two-spirit you'll find thousands of references.

    They are interesting because on the same soil that now has no tolerance for gender benders, and violence is common against them (us), the native Indians showed a progressive society that did just the opposite. One Crow elder said, "We don't throw away our people like the white man. Everyone has a place."

    Ironically, some of the first berdache were discovered in Texas. It is ironic, because that is George Bush's home state. He of course is violently against same sex marriage. Likely, berdache lived on or near his ranch, as they were prevalant in all tribes.

  • #2
    Thanks for bringing this up, mate! The Berdache are actually a very interesting chapter in TS (and US) history.
    Found once this link on that subject: http://members.tripod.com/~Berdache_Two/index.html
    You might know anyway...

    MK
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEdXtf-GHvU

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by (ziggystardust @ Mar. 22 2006,21:49)
      Just finished a fairly exhaustive study on the native North American Indian berdache, or transsexuals of those days, for my book. For those of you academically inclined...

      Berdache were recognized and accepted in virtually all NA Indian tribes. They often cross-dressed, behaved like women, spoke like women, and married men. Basically, Ladyboys. They married men, and those men were NOT considered homosexual, because berdache were considered to be neither male nor female but having "two spirits"; more precisely, the best of both worlds, literally, having skills of both men and women.

      Their primary difference with LBs was that they were also viewed as having spiritual skills, and were used in healing ceremonies, births, deaths, and sometimes held an elevated status in tribes.

      The lovely Christian European explorers forced the Indians to stop the practice, starting with a Spanish explorer, de Vaca, in about 1540, in the "slaughter of the berdache". The last berdache disappeared in about the 1940s or so.

      Today, native Indians use the term Two-Spirit to refer to gays, lesbians, bisexual, and transsexual (and berdache). If you search the internet for berdache or two-spirit you'll find thousands of references.

      They are interesting because on the same soil that now has no tolerance for gender benders, and violence is common against them (us), the native Indians showed a progressive society that did just the opposite. One Crow elder said, "We don't throw away our people like the white man. Everyone has a place."

      Ironically, some of the first berdache were discovered in Texas. It is ironic, because that is George Bush's home state. He of course is violently against same sex marriage. Likely, berdache lived on or near his ranch, as they were prevalant in all tribes.
      While I normally agree with and respect your opinions, Ziggy- I have to point something out here.

      What is your point exactly? You started out by sharing some information, but you couldn't help veering into your personal bias and revealing some thinly veiled feelings.

      If you're going to do that, why don't you just say what you want to say, and back it up with evidence if it's required? At least then people could chime in for or against. I have no problem defending you if I agree, or debating if I disagree.

      I'm really getting sick of everywhere I turn seeing people and especially politicians, lawyers, and the media smearing their ideas around with half-truths and subtle BS.

      Why can't people have the conviction to just say what they want to say? Suggested, subliminal, propaganda reeks of a weak argument in my book.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hey Ziggy,

        Thanks for the information. I'm certainly not an academician,
        but I find this info on native americans very interesting. Just what sort of book are you doing research for?

        Unlike grunyen, I don't care what your political bent is.....

        kahuna
        "It's not Gay if you beat them up afterwards."  --- Anon

        Comment


        • #5
          Just for the record... I don't care what his political bent is either.

          And this is exactly my point. People have become so confused now that the vast majority of people don't understand political discussion or criticism. No one understands the issues, the proper venues for redress, how to argue a position, when or even if their position is being threatened.

          Everything has come down to subtle, insiduous innuendo or knee jerk reflex. I gives me great concern. The political battles of today and tomorrow will be an outcome winner between the sneaky and the reflexive.

          Neither is a comforting thought.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by (grunyen @ Mar. 22 2006,22:58)
            Everything has come down to subtle, insiduous innuendo or knee jerk reflex. I gives me great concern. The political battles of today and tomorrow will be an outcome winner between the sneaky and the reflexive.
            Ziggys post is completely comprehensible!

            I think your on the wrong forum Grunyen. Your last post makes no sense at all.

                 

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by (grunyen @ Mar. 22 2006,22:58)
              Just for the record... I don't care what his political bent is either.
              Calm down grunyen....I'm not attacking you...Just letting ziggy know that I'm only interested in his info regarding native americans...sorry if I offended you...
              "It's not Gay if you beat them up afterwards."  --- Anon

              Comment


              • #8
                Well thanks for the honest opinin Grunyen, but I'm also a bit lost on what insiduous inuendo was there, but if you saw it, then it's in the your eyes at least. Actually, I've re-read it, and it is all factual. The Christians most certainly stopped the practice. Bishops and Indian "Administrators" cut the berdache hair, made them wear men's clothing, and taught the children in Indian schools that it was an evil practice. The slaughter of the berdache by de Vaca is a well known published fact.

                And George Bush is a major proponent against same-sex marriages, as we know, to the point of trying to put it in the consititution. and it is ironic, at least to me, that the earliest berdache 'discovered' in about 1513, were in his state.

                Where do you see the evil in my writing? Help me!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by (grunyen @ Mar. 23 2006,03:58)
                  Just for the record... I don't care what his political bent is either.

                  And this is exactly my point. People have become so confused now that the vast majority of people don't understand political discussion or criticism. No one understands the issues, the proper venues for redress, how to argue a position, when or even if their position is being threatened.

                  Everything has come down to subtle, insiduous innuendo or knee jerk reflex. I gives me great concern. The political battles of today and tomorrow will be an outcome winner between the sneaky and the reflexive.

                  Neither is a comforting thought.
                  Why make something out of nothing. I and it seems the others read the post in the vain in which it was intended and that is just a relaying of some interesting information ziggy found during his research. I also find it a little ironic about them being found in Dubya's home state and I could care less about American politics.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    well said grunyem exactly how it is these's days. just while were on it everyone loves to knock the european explores etc(an easy target) with out them and the following industrial revolution we would all be living in the bloody caves. so think before you type\ cheers doonnnny

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by (donnnnny @ Mar. 23 2006,08:21)
                      well said  grunyem  exactly  how it is these's days. just while were on it  everyone loves to knock the european  explores etc(an easy target)  with out them and the following industrial revolution we would all be living in the bloody caves. so think before you  type\ cheers doonnnny
                      As an aside, I'm in the middle of a great read by Tony Horwitz...an American,albeit married to an Australian girl, entitled , Blue Latitudes - Boldly Going Where Captain Cook Has Gone Before....

                      It's my second run through the book so i obviously enjoy it, but the point is, it certainly validates doonnny's statement....

                      If you get the opportunity to read it...enjoy...
                      "It's not Gay if you beat them up afterwards."  --- Anon

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        PS....Moreover, I now know what a bubble and squeak is thanks to Road Runner....we can learn something new every day....
                        "It's not Gay if you beat them up afterwards."  --- Anon

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by (donnnnny @ Mar. 23 2006,13:21)
                          well said  grunyem  exactly  how it is these's days. just while were on it  everyone loves to knock the european  explores etc(an easy target)  with out them and the following industrial revolution we would all be living in the bloody caves. so think before you  type\ cheers doonnnny
                          I don't think anyone is knocking the European explorers merely just stating historical fact.

                          Maybe someone needs to follow there own advice and think before they type  

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My apologies...thought doonny was being tongue-in-cheek...
                            Teach me to read posts more carefully....
                            "It's not Gay if you beat them up afterwards."  --- Anon

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              By-the-by, the piece I referred to...if you think it makes James Cook the ultimate hero of the western world, don't read it....sorry I butted in....
                              "It's not Gay if you beat them up afterwards."  --- Anon

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