I am gay/I'm NOT gay/I don't know!

[Road Runner]

(Freebird @ Apr. 22 2008,21:21) "If not want make pussy, that's not real ladyboy."

Yes but wanting and doing can be a very long way apart.

How many people reading this forum 'want' to have sex with a ladyboy.

The fact they have not does that mean they are not ladyboy lovers.

What stops them? Pretty much what I said above - mostly money or fear.

RR.

[Road Runner]

(kahuna @ Apr. 22 2008,21:12) But I would wager...and of course it's a false wager because it can never be tested...that if, the majority of ladyboys were born into another sociocultural system they would NOT be ladyboys...

I can't disagree with you there. Thailand for at least has a level of tolerance for sexuality that many countries at best are going to take many-many years to reach - if they ever do.

Even the 'enlightened' UK is seriously biased against transsexuals. Just look at the press coverage they get.
I welcome Naang Faa's comments but somehow I don't think she will contradict me.

But while I think that a few ladyboys are borderline gay men/true transsexuals - to infer that most/all are gay guys with implants is completely wrong.

RR.

[Naang Faa]

Spot on RR, I have had the fortune of meeting a few pre-ops on this stay..
The operation has come into the conversation on all but one occation and
the reasons they not had SRS is money and a fear of pain..The only advice i
could give was save for the best surgeon no matter how long it takes..
x

[Monkey]

(Road Runner @ Apr. 22 2008,21:42) What stops them?  Pretty much what I said above  -  mostly money or fear.

I was going to ask -- "Fear of LadyBoys or fear of facing their own sexuality?"

Thinking about it I think it's fear of their own sexuality, and that they 'might' be gay.

Most gays I know say that bi-men are just gays in denial and I haven't met a single one who understands the attraction of LadyBoys...

Their usual reply is something along the lines of "If you're gonna fuck a girl, fuck a girl, if you just want some cock then fuck a guy"

We're so misunderstood...

[Freebird]

"to infer that most/all are gay guys with implants is completely wrong"

Imho, many of them believe that they are actually girls BUT I wonder how many of them would be straight men if they weren't raised up as girl by their parents.

OT: Weren't there some weird experiments raising up children under different circumstances?!

[Monkey]

(Freebird @ Apr. 22 2008,22:02) Imho, many of them believe that they are actually girls BUT I wonder how many of them would be straight men if they weren't raised up as girl by their parents.

None of them!

How many guys here were brought up as straight men?

I was brought up by a homophobic father, lived and worked in macho, homophobic surroundings but I still shag men in dresses.

It's nature not nurture imho.

You can't change what you are and what you like, only what you will do about it...

[bigmick22]

(Monkey @ Apr. 22 2008,17:10) but I still shag men in dresses.

you should try a LB

[Road Runner]

(Freebird @ Apr. 22 2008,22:02) Imho, many of them believe that they are actually girls BUT I wonder how many of them would be straight men if they weren't raised up as girl by their parents.

                             

Ohh..... sorry I just can't help myself when I see that  -  raised as girls....              


One I know very well was was beaten by her notional father when she tried to exhibit any outward signs of being a girl.  She was to an extent protected by her notional mother but as everone in the family was afraid of the father I doubt that the protection was up to much.

This started I believe when she was about 4-5 and started to realise her sexuality (but the beatings may have started later) they continued to around 15 when I suspect she temporarily gave up and pretended to be a boy at home.  She was still acting as a girl at school and wearing makeup there.

She then left home to join her real mother in Bangkok at 17  -  she never said it but I'm pretty sure it was to get away from her notional father.

Please explain to me how the theory of nuture fits here?  


OK  -  I'm not a psychologist and I have no training in this field but having seen what some of these girls go through I just don't buy it that some would be 'straight' if raised the right way.


RR.

[Freebird]

Being raised by a homophobic father and homophobic surroundings aren't that close to being treated like a girl from the first day of you life. I assume that it is totally possible to achive a lot of things via nurture.

"Sexualforscher John Money John Money hat 1955 anhand klinischer Fälle gezeigt, dass Kinder, bei denen die anatomische Zuordnung zum männlichen oder weiblichen Geschlecht nicht eindeutig erfolgen konnte, nur wenig Probleme hatten, sich an das für sie ausgesuchte Geschlecht anzupassen." (For the Germans) I'm lazy right now. Just google John Money... as far as I read it not absolutely what I am talking about but getting close to it.

OT: 5:25 in the morning, 16 hours work, I'm done for today...

Edit: Add the religious and cultural bullshit to all this and the fact that they aren't told the lie that they are real girl and... TADA, you got a mindfucked lb.

[katoeylover]

Yes but the Money argument was flawed in the case of Brian/Brenda.

It is NATURE, not nurture i am afraid....

[Freebird]

(katoeylover @ Apr. 23 2008,07:43) Yes but the Money argument was flawed in the case of Brian/Brenda.

It is NATURE, not nurture i am afraid....

He/She was told a lie, a lb grows up knowing that she ain't a real girl. But without getting mindfucked all the time about being a lb, things might be different.

[Road Runner]

I don't understand how;-  ' Being raised by a homophobic father and homophobic surroundings aren't that close to being treated like a girl from the first day of you life'

I can see it would possibly/probably? make you homophobic but I fail to see how it would make you a transsexual.
So far as I am aware no-one has yet managed to prove that you can change a person's sexuality by nuture.
So far as I know the opposite is the case  -  that all attempts at nuture have failed.
The guineapig (excuse the term) has either reverted to their true sexuality or has committed suicide due to the stress and confusion.


I do agree that nuture can;-  'achieve a lot of things.'   The Palestinians manage to churn out suicide bombers in seemingly unlimited quantities.    


In the case I mentioned I don't believe the notional father is homophobic.
He just wanted a boy and not a girl.  Even now he does not fully understand his son/daughter's problems.

I guess he has come to accept that he cannot change things though.

RR.

[kahuna]

(Monkey @ Apr. 23 2008,07:10) It's nature not nurture imho.

And have you been there and seen it happening...I have..While spending time in Isaan I have watched first hand the family decide the sexual fate of the children...

When you're only two years old and you are told over and over that your are a ladyboy...and you are taught the "for girl only" Isaan dances and when they paint your little finger nails and toe nails with red fingernail polish...and when the older children sing little gay teasers to the younger ones...What in the hell are you gonna grow up to be...especially when there are older ladyboy models in the family...

And is this extended family unit isolated...Nope....I saw it over and over again...and even through the family will tell you that they are aware how hard the life of  ladyboy is...they continue with their ladyboy factories...

Now granted they may be some femininity in these little tike's that I can't see, but I have a very strong belief that many, if not most, would grow to be nothing more than a gay male...

And even if the family doesn't openly promote the ladyboy factory tradition, the teen and twenty something aged girls ALL have older friends from whom they have learned the ladyboy life...

It's happening as I type...but perhaps you have to see it to believe it...

It's my reality, based on my observation...

[mirimark]

35 votes are leading the way stating ; Its a Dude.

My point being, You know, for a bunch of non gays, I never hear too much about sports on this forum.
You know what the say about guys who don't like sports ?

" YOUR ALL FREGG'N QUEER! "
Get over it.

Sorry for the shouting. I know Stogie hates it.

But hey man, they deserve it. I'm just trying to reach out and show them the Light of the wonderful world of;
F E M B O Y S !

Its the only true road to happiness.

[jadeite]

It sounds quite unusual to me for a family to will their children into become ladyboys since they know it is a more difficult life and they want the best for their children. Let€™s also not forget the stigma: many Thai€™s think ladyboys were adulterous men being punished for their last life. While I have not run across families that encourage it, the most common thing I see is families that tolerate it. Some ladyboys however are not so lucky. Some are forced by their family NOT to be a ladyboy and prohibited from exhibiting any outward appearances (long hair, dress, etc) and forced into manly activities. Some ladyboys are kicked out of the house and downright disowned by their family for choosing to become a ladyboy. I know an Isaan family that thought their kid was a ladyboy because he showed all the telltale signs such as liking flowers and makeup when he was very young. It was ok by them; neither encouraged nor discouraged. Now in his teens, he turned out like a real guy and is not a ladyboy at all.

But in a nutshell I don€™t think you can't point to one simple thing that creates a ladyboy. It just seems there must be a number of complex variables at work.

And as far as this poll, that is a HE, not a SHE. No way!