Is this true?

[Guest]

I looked at the Avatar picture from someone in the forum and i saw this pic.. Is it really true? or is it a fake? I thought the "ladyboys" where treated with more respect... Well maybe im wrong. But well.. what can I say??

Kate.

[Guest]

Hi Kate
That sign does not surprise me in the least,

Many signs outside bars in Thailand state that "Arabs not allowed"

A group of Middle eastern men got into a go-go bar on soi2 pattayaland, Pattaya, undetected by doorgirls one night.
There excuse for kicking them out was,,Place full, even though there was not a soul in the place.

Bali_Ken

[Guest]

well ya.. maybe, but... as a TS i get kinda upset with those kind of prejudice, i like being submissive but that a bit too much



sorry,
Kate

[stogie bear]

well ya.. maybe, but... as a TS i get kinda upset with those kind of prejudice, i like being submissive but that a bit too much

Hi Kate...

The sign you posted is not a result of prejudice against ladyboys. It's more for the protection of tourists.

It's specifically aimed at ladyboys who are on the game and you shouldn't take offense to it.

There is a lot of prejudice in Thailand however this is not an example of it.

[Guest]

hello stogie bear,

I understand and I agree, I just cant avoid to be a little bit tickled off by those kind of stuff.... its in my blood you know.

Because see... I have a nice interesting story to tell... During the time i was I Canada, I "served" my years in a boys only Highschool called Upper Canada College, I suffered a lot of prejudice. I was unable to make friends because I was too girly for their taste, I had problems during sports, even though I hated it, I was pretty much forced to play some.

And see it was a boys school, so I would constantly hear comments like "this is men washroom, what you doing here", "OH! I didnt know they accept girls at UCC", "Hey cutie! looking for your boyfriend?", and it goes and on...

It was a pretty confusing time for me because I was in this process of trying to discover and re-learn stuff, I was able to see me as a girl at that time, but I couldnt be the girl I had the right to be. During that time i had that "Oh my God! Males suck" kind of thing.

Now.. During the time I studied at York University I would go there in girl mode , everybody knew my name as Kate, except for a few staff.

But still, the prejudice was still "latent" in there, you know in one form or another, it was there... stabbing me bit by bit.. I used to go to clubs and people would think I'm girl because of the looks, but when they check ID.... it was a big big problem to tell them whats going on. Then you know, there is the laugh, the jokes and people who point fingers....

I could never ever find someone that would accept me for what I am, there was always this "oh she is a TS, becareful, she is dangerous, she is in drugs, she will hurt you, she will rob you, she will make your kids sick, whe will spread deaseases, she can kill with her laser eyes, becareful she looks 5"3 but in reality she is 6"5 460 pounds in that little clothing" kind of thing...

I am not ranting anyone, I am just saying that I am more sensitive to this prejudice stuff, and even though you say, and i agree with you that its a form to protect the clients. I tend to see the side o the girls, you know...

And hey!... It was pretty comforting to see that countries in Asia have the same "type" of prejudice we have in Brazil or Canada for that matters. Because i thought that Thailand would be like a TS/LB paradise.


Sorry for the words,
Kate.

[Guest]

Stogie is right. I lived in Canada, Turkey, China, France, Korea, and my job takes me to EVERY country in Asia, essentially non-stop travel. There is NO country as open to LBs as Thailand, believe me. The sign means nothing. I just had dinner with my friend May at a very upscale restaurant, and the only that happens, as usual, are comments on how beautiful she is (and yes, all the Thais know she is LB). Ditto when we went to a bar next, and ditto when we went to Koh Samui last week on the beach.

[Mai-Kee]

Those signs are especially in tourist areas and it definitely is a perfect sign for Thai prejudice! Prejudice in Thailand is never open or obvious - in that case it is, because they have the feeling to "protect" the tourists of longfingered ladyboys (that's actually one of the most common prejudices).
I have absolutely no clue how you can say that there is no prejudice against ladyboys in Thailand (which doesn't mean that in other Asian countries it isn't worse)?? You lived long enough over there to know better. Did you ever talk to Thai middle/upper class people about ladyboys? Try it, you might be surprised about the famous Thai tolerance!

MK

[Guest]

Hello!

ziggystardust, thats exactly what I hear when I ask tourists that went to Thailand, they always say they are open minded, and maybe I should try to move to Thailand, or even study and persue another degree or something. I dont know if its true or not, its just like i said, the sign is pretty sad at least in point of view!

Mai-Kee, I never really talked with long time citizens in Thailand, but I if i ever go to Thailand, I know that I will face some kind of prejudice, maybe people will treat me with a bit more respect because they will notice I am a tourist.... But im sure every single country has a little prejudice for TSs/LBs, but again thats my point of view.

Thanks for the inputs,
Kate

[Mai-Kee]

As a TS you will sadly face prejudice everywhere. Thailand is on the surface very easy with this matter. First, because there are so many and secondly - Thais just don't give a shit! But as soon as they getting personally involved then tolerance is not that popular anymore.
I have a lb friend who did her master degree at Chula, which is supposed to be the best university in Thailand. Afterwards she went to Berkley for a PhD - all that was only possible, beacuse her father is a well known architect in Thailand. He had to pull I don't know how many strings to get her this chance. She is an extremely bright girl and she will make her way anyway - but not in Thailand, as she assured me. She might stay in the US and go for a university career, is the last information I have from her. I know several cases where "transitioning" lb's lost their jobs, because of too long hair, wearing make-up as a "man" - or just being the laugh of the company and they couldn't bear it anymore.
Talk to Thais who are in charge of something, who hold positions as directors or vice-presidents and ask them if they would seriously hire a LB for a qualified position. They might not even answer that question.....
Of couse in some branches it's a lot better. I have another lb friend who is chief editor at a well known music magazin in Thailand, for many years already. There are great make-up artists, famous singers, actors, etc. But the classical industry/business career is also in Thailand for a lb simply impossible - and that's because of the prejudice in the middle and upper class.

MK

[stogie bear]

But the classical industry/business career is also in Thailand for a lb simply impossible - and that's because of the prejudice in the middle and upper class.

That's simply not the case and to make a general statement like that hugely distorts what Thais are and are not tolerant of.

It is true that when uninvolved Thais take a back seat and don't get too judgmental. They do have prejudices but they are not borne out of hatred but more from ignorance and bad education.

Most of them don't like blacks and they are not ashamed to say so. But they don't hate them. The same goes for Arabs, handicapped people and other minorities.

As long as I have known Kui she has never ever once complained about her job and associated anything negative in her professional career as anything to do with her sexuality. Not once in 4 years. When she graduated and started work it was NEVER an issue and it continues to be that way...

If ladyboys are getting fired or discriminated against it's because they are crap at their jobs. And I've seen this on numerous occasions too.

Thais are (generally) thin skinned and resistant to change, but in the world head quarters of ladyboys there is an almost level playing field for serious minded and ambitious ladyboys.

I can tell you of one managerof a company in Thailand who is waiting 6 months for a ladyboy to finish her current job so she can start working for him. He won't even consider another candidate!

I can give you a list of ladyboys who hold down responsible positions (albeit not professional) and are given a large amount of responsibility and trust with money and property.

It's down to the individual to make the best of what they have and the same goes for ladyboys in the Thai workplace.

If they are good then they will get on. If they are educated, qualified and ambitious then they can do what they want to.

What happens in other countries I wouldn't like to comment on. The sign at the head of this thread isn't pretty but it's not prejudice either!

[Guest]

Mai-kee,

I agree with you, well I still work in a nice respected american comapany here in Brazil, they hired me because they know that I am capable, but I know my job won't last long, and once again i will fully depend on my parents! Which means going thru their rules again....

The place where I work, I never told them i am a TS, but i belive they know, my hair is pretty long, I made some changes in my face, Im taking hormones for a long time and.. I always wear female clothing or at least uni-sex clothing (like jeans and tee). And hey I have my ears pierced, I get manicure evey week.. and... if they dont still know its because they are just dumb...

If i lost my job, I dont really know what i will do, most probably just start from scratch, go back to university and try getting another diploma, maybe become a doctor or a psychologist and expecialize in Transgender issues...

I am aware that nobody will ever want to "take care of me", I am pretty sure that i dont live in a fairy tale world, and there is no "prince charming" waiting for me... And also i know that I will never have that respectful life my parents wanted me to have.

But, i will survive!

Kate.

[Guest]

If i lost my job, I dont really know what i will do, most probably just start from scratch, go back to university and try getting another diploma, maybe become a doctor or a psychologist and expecialize in Transgender issues...

Kate,

Very nice to have your input here. The perspective can be pretty heavily weighted to one side so other views are most welcome.

IMO, the very best investment anyone can make is in their own education. Obtaining significant academic credentials can open doors to places just not otherwise available. Naturally, what you accomplish once given the opportunity is completely up to you and how hard you apply yourself. It sounds like you are diligent and hardworking, so that shouldn't be a problem. If you have significant interest in gender issues, obtaining advanced training that could benefit the transgender community is a very worthwhile pursuit. Marci Bowers, M.D., is a wonderful example of a transgender woman who now applies her compassion, knowledge, and surgical skills to the benefit of the transgender community.

http://www.marcibowers.com/grs/history.html

I am aware that nobody will ever want to "take care of me", I am pretty sure that i dont live in a fairy tale world, and there is no "prince charming" waiting for me...

Please don't assume that there isn't someone out there for you. There are many fine gentlemen looking for someone like you. I suspect they would find you very interesting and who knows where that might lead. Thanks for contributing.

[Guest]

starwheel,

I loved what you wrote, and yes I also believe that education is the way.

I am not really hardworking, i was never the best student school, and i really had a lot of interest in being the best in class anything like that... Thats exactly what i would like to do, graduate in a Med School (Johns Hopkins maybe?) and start working as a doctor to help TG people, i was thinking endocrinology....

Thank you very much for your input,

Kate

[stogie bear]

I agree with you, well I still work in a nice respected american comapany here in Brazil, they hired me because they know that I am capable, but I know my job won't last long, and once again i will fully depend on my parents! Which means going thru their rules again....

The place where I work, I never told them i am a TS, but i belive they know, my hair is pretty long, I made some changes in my face, Im taking hormones for a long time and.. I always wear female clothing or at least uni-sex clothing (like jeans and tee). And hey I have my ears pierced, I get manicure evey week.. and... if they dont still know its because they are just dumb...

If i lost my job, I dont really know what i will do, most probably just start from scratch, go back to university and try getting another diploma, maybe become a doctor or a psychologist and expecialize in Transgender issues...

I am aware that nobody will ever want to "take care of me", I am pretty sure that i dont live in a fairy tale world, and there is no "prince charming" waiting for me... And also i know that I will never have that respectful life my parents wanted me to have.

But, i will survive!

Your letter could be written by anyone and the problems you face (at least from your letter) are not all the province of transgendered persons.

(Although tricking people to get a job is certainly one of them!)

It's easy to blame our problems on our sexuality but I suspect that the negative tone of your post has as much to do with your 'ability to succeed' as much as your sexuality does.

I wish you luck and I hope you continue to contribute here. It's a wonderful thing to have ladyboys and transgendered people here to tell us what they think.

I'm no hunk either, I don't work in a glamourous job and I haven't got much money but I ALWAYS believed in fairytales and I also believe that you make your own luck in life.

If you don't believe in Prince Charming then of course he doesn't exist. If you think you'll lose your job soon then it's likely that you will. If you believe that you'll end up depending on your parents then of course you'll end up doing just that.

Try setting more positive goals for yourself. Studying to be a Doctor is a good start. It seems that your personal life is tinged with sadness. Only you can change that.

Good luck,

SB

[Mai-Kee]

But the classical industry/business career is also in Thailand for a lb simply impossible - and that's because of the prejudice in the middle and upper class.

That's simply not the case and to make a general statement like that hugely distorts what Thais are and are not tolerant of.

It is true that when uninvolved Thais take a back seat and don't get too judgmental. They do have prejudices but they are not borne out of hatred but more from ignorance and bad education.

Most of them don't like blacks and they are not ashamed to say so. But they don't hate them. The same goes for Arabs, handicapped people and other minorities.

As long as I have known Kui she has never ever once complained about her job and associated anything negative in her professional career as anything to do with her sexuality. Not once in 4 years. When she graduated and started work it was NEVER an issue and it continues to be that way...

If ladyboys are getting fired or discriminated against it's because they are crap at their jobs. And I've seen this on numerous occasions too.

Thais are (generally) thin skinned and resistant to change, but in the world head quarters of ladyboys there is an almost level playing field for serious minded and ambitious ladyboys.

I can tell you of one managerof a company in Thailand who is waiting 6 months for a ladyboy to finish her current job so she can start working for him. He won't even consider another candidate!

I can give you a list of ladyboys who hold down responsible positions (albeit not professional) and are given a large amount of responsibility and trust with money and property.

It's down to the individual to make the best of what they have and the same goes for ladyboys in the Thai workplace.

If they are good then they will get on. If they are educated, qualified and ambitious then they can do what they want to.

What happens in other countries I wouldn't like to comment on. The sign at the head of this thread isn't pretty but it's not prejudice either!

I'm glad to hear that and I'm pretty sure that despite the gender, the persons skills are the biggest issue - of course!
But it seems that my experience over there is 100% different from what you're telling. I once lost my job as a consultant in Bangkok, because my client saw me with my lb girlfriend in a shopping-mall and mentioned to my boss that he is not used to work with people who are hanging around with such "individuals" (original quote!) I have a circle of farang and Thai acquaintances in BKK whom I know businesswise and if they would know about my lb-background they wouldn't even pick up the phone next time I call them. I've heard statements from a Thai publisher, who got his education in Cambridge and I am sure he would call himself "liberal", that were really beyond what I have ever heard in the west - and I don't even want to quote a high ranking military officer on this matter. Go with one of your lb friends for a Sat lunch to the Greyhound at the Emporium (which is excellent by the way). Of course you will find the gay waiters all smile and big time "suay mak mak", etc..... but then watch the faces of the Thai-Chinese family next to you...... believe me that's not friendly anymore! Or make a date with your sexy stunner at the 87 in the Conrad. The bar is on a Fri evening maybe 1/3 filled with expats and hotel guests ad 2/3 with Thais. She might be the only lb there (although there are enough high-class gg hookers around) and the looks you get from the Thais are far from being nice. I once was even told by the waitress to leave the table, because it is reserved - which wasn't the case, but I saw the group of Thais next to us complained about what kind of people are coming here....
Of course you can say, what the fuck, I don't give a shit what they think - well, I don't care, because I don't live there anymore and don't depend on those people and their money, but as soon as you are doing business with them or you want to get your probably brilliant lb friend a high level job at their companies - then just forget it that you ever have even talked to a lb before.
I don't say that there is a general prejudice and of course there is no problem hanging out with them at the places we're normally go or somewhere in the suburbs, at the country side, because those are their people, their families, there, but in certain groups - and if you want to make a career over there you for sure come close to those groups - it's worse than I experienced it in the west.

But hey, those are just my 5 cents on that matter.

MK