The Ladyboy Conundrum

[perth_couple]

The book Gender and Sexuality in Modern Thailand has some interesting insights/research on a bunch of stuff relating to (oddly) gender and sexuality...

It's an academic work and I found it an intersting read....

[Tomcat]

Its not just Thailand, what about Brazil, i would bet that they have as many TS per capita than LOS. One Town alone was reported to have around 20,000 tgirls in Brazil.( well maybe it was a city)

[katoeylover]

I'll be in Issan next week so will look out for the "evidence"

I know that from one village alone there must be at least 10 ladyboys, and this aint no metropolis.

I dont know about nature/nurture but i do know they see loads of wealth and farang coming for the ladyboys

2+2 = 65?

[Tomcat]

exactly, so thats part of the Culture up there. The nurture part if you like.

IMO
There is no very simple answer to Pacmans question. Its complicated

[gart4571]

(newatthis @ Jan. 04 2011,11:20) Interesting topic and one I have often wondered about. The relatively high frequency of LB's present in Thailand has surprised me many times. Not the least of which was a high school aged LB motorcycle  "gang"  of 6 or 7 riding classic Honda 50cc replicas at the Erawan Cave in Loei. I wanted to take a photo but it didn't look like such a good  a good idea at the time.

In my LB GF's village they are fairly common. I don't have a percentage or number but you will frequently see one. I went to the local restaurant and had 3 waitresses stand by ready to mix our drinks and 2 were LB's (looking good and ready for action I might add). She has a number of LB's friends in town as well and most in her age range.

Although my sample size may be small I have asked many LB's when they first thought they were LB's and the answer often is when they first went to school. The degree of acceptance by the parents has varied. My GF was lucky and her mother realized very early on and just flowed with it. I have seen her photo at 5 years old and she looked feminine.

I believe the levels of environmental toxicity in Thailand are linked to endocrine changes during growth of future LB's. Not all of them of course but a quick Google search will show that this can occur in animals with pesticides and other industrial compounds. I tried to post a link for this but couldn't do it successfully.

Spending some time in a village will reveal lots of pesticides in the local population's life - from spraying their houses to kill mosquitoes  to eating crabs and frogs and rats (well, at least in Issan) from the pesticide laced rice fields. I cringe every time they eat  fish they catch in the local man-made ponds. I don't know exactly what a lab analysis would show but I am sure it would be something to avoid. I haven't had any success in convincing them to stop eating the fish.

I agree that in Thailand "gay" boys have the option to be LB's and some of them follow that path. In Western countries it's not such an easy option to pursue.

Well, that's my 2 cents anyway.
Cheers

OH!! So maybe we can blame it on Agent Orange.

[Tomcat]

You would be surprised how much enviromental issues can effect the human system. Why is the male sperm count lower nowdays, why do Girls in the west reach puberty at a lower age and dropping each year. and so on and on. These are not evolutionary issues

It may have nothing to with this Transgender topic but the modern enviroment sure is having an effect in one way or another.

[thegame925]

I intend to post my own detailed response to the questions posed and the comments made by The Honourable Member from Perth once my working vacation in Thailand is over and I am back in Europe.

However, as has been pointed out in posts over the years, there was "research" published in 2003, namely:-

The Third Sex: Kathoey, Thailand's Ladyboys
by Professor Richard Totman (Hardcover - 31 May 2003)
Hardcover: 196 pages
Publisher: Souvenir Press Ltd (31 May 2003)
Language English
ISBN-10: 0285636685
ISBN-13: 978-0285636682

Customer Reviews
The Third Sex: Kathoey, Thailand's Ladyboys

4 of 4 people found the following review helpful:
3.0 out of 5 stars Should have been better, 22 Mar 2004
By A Customer

This review is from: The Third Sex: Kathoey, Thailand's Ladyboys (Hardcover)
My first reading of this book put me to sleep. This has never happened to me before when reading books about transgenderism. I needed several sittings to read through it. The subject matter was what kept me reading. Parts of the book I found to be quite well written - the stories of 3 young kathoey. In all, but one instance, the telling of the kathoey's stories was interesting. The one reflection where it could have been a lot better was about the 65 year old kathoey in Khoen Khan. I learned a lot about the Buddhist religion and kathoey in Thailand. All of this left me a bit sad though. The condition of kathoey being depicted as paying for previous sins in previous lives. This book should be read by all women with a trangender background who are thinking of moving to Thailand. Things are not as rosey as they appear. Once can even pick up on this when watching the films "The Iron Ladies 1 and 2". Thailand is not transgender heaven. The last chapter about aging kathoey should have not even been written - so little said - 3 pages or so. It appeared as if it was written at the Bangkok International Airport while the auther waited for the flight back to London. The author was in a position to really gather deep insight into the lives of kathoey and the society they live in (are tolerated in). I think he should have put more work into his book than spending time at the cabaret shows which he discusses to much length. Way too much repetition in the book. Oh well, he did lead me to another book - this one about the Hijra in India which I've ordered. Hope it is better. For me this book is a simple 3 - meaning okay.

6 of 7 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars 'Ladyboys' as they really are., 20 Aug 2003

This is not the sort of salacious account you might read in the newspapers.
Nor is it a superficial Western guidebook account of 'transvestite cabarets.'
Richard Totman lived with a Thai family for several months listening to the kathoey telling their own stories,
and adding an account of their long history as an intrinsic part of Thai culture and their relationship to the nation's religion.
But most of all, this a charming account of real human beings.


5.0 out of 5 stars An interesting and enjoyable read, 13 July 2007
By Karen Prince .This review is from: The Third Sex: Kathoey, Thailand's Ladyboys (Hardcover)
After watching the Ladyboys of Bangkok in Manchester recently, I decided to purchase this book and I'm glad I did. I have not been able to put it down so far and have to force myself to shut it and go to sleep! I know that the research is accurate as my Mother and Father lived abroad near the Kathoey for some time. I like the way that the book is split up, it's like a story but with real people's experiences which the author gained from living with members of the Kahoey combined with actual facts and figures from other researchers.These statistics and other research help to interpret the story of Sowanee (sp?) and her decision to become Kathoey herself and then to go on to provide support as a sister to other would be Kathoey. I can't wait to read the rest. I am at university myself and I find this book most enlightening and it may help me in future with assigments etc.

3 of 5 people found the following review helpful:
2.0 out of 5 stars In need of an editor..., 26 Sep 2005
By "philip16117" - This review is from: The Third Sex: Kathoey, Thailand's Ladyboys (Hardcover)
From such a scholarly writer, this is a curiously unscholarly work. It appears to be a book written in a hurry, without being properly edited.
Chapters are something of a hotch-potch. First, a biographical account, then a chapter on prostitution in Thailand, then another biographical account, and so on. The author refers to himself and the reader as 'we'. Who might this 'we' refer to? Presumably to a 'western' readership, which, ironically, seems to exclude a Thai and Southeast Asian readership (which is odd, given that the book is also published in Thailand). 'We', the authore implies, will be surprised at what we read here: we might not be if we are Thai.

There is a huge amount of repetition in this book. The reader finds him or herself thinking 'didn't he just say that?' A check reveals that he did.

Reference to other writers seems hurriedly done. The anthropologist and American born but 40 years resident in Thailand, William Klausner - probably the person who has done more for describing Thai culture than anyone from outside of that country - is referred to as a 'travel writer'. Certain key Buddhist ideas are insufficiently researched: most authorities consider 'karma' to be 'intentional behaviour' but Totman seems to refer to it as a 'thing' which is accrued.

The author refers to his extensive living and researching in Thailand, for this book but he offers little of the data that must have piled up from all this work. His comparing and contrasting of katoey and monks seems spurious - he seems to argue that one group shores up the other. This is a bit like comparing and contrasting Northern European nuns with European drug adicts: it doesn't get us very far.

Gender references and the use of 'he' and 'she' are not entirely consistent, which is sometimes confusing.

This book is too long and would have been better as a more 'concentrated' essay. Like Wagner's operas, it also needed a good editor. There are many 'western' Thai commentators who have offered more informed and scholarly works: Mulder, Jackson, Reynolds, Klausner and so on. They also offer deeper insights, perhaps, than are offered here. It is easy, as a 'westerner' to be overwhelmed and enchanted by Thailand but its deeper meanings are probably more complex than this author suggests. After many years of researching, both Mulder and Klausner reveal the difficulty for an outsider to 'understand' Thailand and both the country and its people deserve a more cautious account than this.

[Tomcat]

(pacman @ Jan. 03 2011,09:26) How come so many of them only look remotely Thai?

How come so many LBs are so tall & way better looking than their natural sisters?

1) Many of them are not Thai are they in any event and after a huge dose of hormones and make up its not surprising they may look different. I thoutht that was obvious Paccers

2) One would suppose that only the best lookers gravitate to the bars where we notice them. There are plenty of not so pretty ladyboys that dont work in bars. Stunning beauty in Humans is rare in any race or gender.

[transcebu]

Just came across this study - well, I didn't quite come, but you know what I mean, that shows evidence for a biological cause for transgenderism for M to Fs. It's an article on a study that showed transgendered M/F have an androgen receptor gene works less efficiently in transwomen, hence lower testosterone effects, and during pregnancy, this may make a significant difference in establishing gender identity.

Hence, we might be able to speculate that this less effective androgen gene is more common in certain locations as it is genetically passed on.

The discovery of a genetic variation in male to female transsexuals adds weight to the view that transsexualism has a biological basis, the Australian researchers behind the find say.

Their study shows male to female transsexuals are more likely than non-transsexual males to have a longer version of a receptor gene for the sex hormone androgen or testosterone.

The findings from the largest-yet genetic study of male to female transsexualism are published online today in Biological Psychiatry.

Study leader, head of molecular genetics at Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research in Melbourne, Associate Professor Vincent Harley, speculates, based on cell studies, that this genetic variation might reduce testosterone action and "under-masculinise" or feminise the brain during foetal development.

"Studies in cells show the longer version of the androgen receptor gene works less efficiently at communicating the testosterone message to cells," Harley says.

"Based on these studies, we speculate the longer version may also work less efficiently in the brain."
'More feminised brain'

The researchers suggest reduced androgen and androgen signalling contributes to the female gender identity of male to female transsexuals.

"It is possible that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might result in incomplete masculinisation of the brain in male to female transsexuals, resulting in a more feminised brain and a female gender identity," they say.

People develop an inner sense of being male or female from an early age but transsexuals identify with a physical sex opposite to their biological sex.

Some theories suggest causes include psychosocial factors including dysfunctional family dynamics and traumatic childhood experiences.

But research is increasingly implicating biological factors including family history and genetics.

"There is a social stigma that transsexualism is simply a lifestyle choice, however our findings support a biological basis of how gender identity develops," Harley says.
Marginalised

"It's a very tough condition. These people are often on the margins of society, are ostracised, poor, unemployed - it's not something you would want to choose yet still some people think it's a choice when it's more likely transsexuals are born like that."

The Australians collaborated with American scientists whose research on male and female brains suggests genes might interact with hormones and other environmental factors in creating gender identity.

Prince Henry's student Lauren Hare collected blood or saliva from 76 male to female transsexuals from around Australia and 36 from America.

She compared their DNA with that of 258 non-transsexual males.

She studied variations in three sex steroid genes involved in actions of the sex hormones androgen and oestrogen - an oestrogen receptor, the aromatase enzyme which converts androgen to oestrogen and the androgen (testosterone) receptor gene.

She hypothesised transsexuals could be under-masculinised and over-feminised due to the function of these genes.

Researchers hope to double the study and investigate the three sex steroid genes and other genes involved in androgen-oestrogen function.

Collaborators were from Monash University, Melbourne University, the University of California, Los Angeles and the Monash Gender Dysphoria Clinic.

[Tomcat]

For many TS i have no doubt that its the genes as would be the case in USA , UK or LOS. But as the the prevalance of LB in LOS and especially Issan i think that on the surface it may appear to be the local culture as many have stated.

Sometimes you can climb to the top of the mountain and seemingly find the truth but in fact its probably buried deep in the valleys (Edgar Allen Poe)

one thing is for sure that there is probably not a sample answer.

[jimbo34]

To me the answer is very simple:
Thai men are the laziest, least productive, parasites on the planet. If a thai couple want help on the farm, or to provide them with a "pension', they need to produce girls! Even when they marry, at least there's a dowry to look forward to.
Therefore no discouragement when their boys start to develop feminine tendencies.
At least a ladyboy will, at worst, help with the labouring, and at best, go off to the cities and earn 'proper' money. Not just sit under a tree drinking whisky with their mates.

[guydesavoy]

That's certainly one way of looking at it. And for simple-minded farmer stock, probably quite convincing. As far as it goes  

[Tomcat]

(jimbo34 @ Jan. 06 2011,19:29) Thai men are the laziest, least productive, parasites on the planet.

now , dont beat around the bush Jim , tell it straight

[pacman]

Thank you gentlemen, all very encouraging.

I am glad I am not alone in noticing that the ratio of LBs in LOS, especially Issan, is way beyond any statistical outcome that could be reasonably predicted for Thailand.

There is some excellent information in this thread already. I was well aware of the damage caused to DNA by the injudicious use of chemicals in the food chain & the environment but I had included enough information in my post without getting into more detail.

And I had no idea of the sheer volume of numbers of TS candidates coming up through the schools of the Philippines. Now there's a country about whom it could be argued has whole sections of the community starting to change sex.

Nature? Nurture? Chemical attack of the endocrine system of the locals? A national predisposition towards sexual ambivalence? We aren't going to determine the answer for the PI or LOS here but it does beg the question - WTF is going on?

I can say that my thoughts on this matter are based on far more than one conversation. This is a subject that has intrigued me for years & I have never passed up a chance to ask the girls, locals & ex-pats about it. Plus I read any relevant article I come across.

I was pleased to read of Kahuna's experience in Issan because it concurs exactly with what I have been told.

An ex-pat of some 35 years told me that he was amazed at the sight of young boys in Issan who were dressed as girls. He was told they were born in the wrong bodies & were being raised as ladyboys. We discussed at length how bizarre this was as the child had no say in the decision. These were pre-school age children BTW.

I made the point that they would be able to grow into men because we are who we are. Nail polish & dolls doesn't stop the onset of puberty with all that comes with it. My friend had to explain to me that these boys had no chance of developing normally because they were being given hormones to complete the wishes of the family.

I still feel a sense of outrage over this abuse & have had it confirmed by others that it is the grandmother who will point out any boy child who she believes shows signs of femininity & deserves this unholy intervention.

Sorry Bumpa but it seems there are a few 'mad old grannies' out there & they get to make these decisions. And the evidence points to some of these being economic decisions. I can only imagine what the villagers thought when stories of new homes being built by LBs for themselves & their family were first reported.

"A katoey can send home 10,000 baht a month, can meet a farang who will build a palace & there is no risk she is ever going to land another mouth to feed on her family? Wow, when can we get one?"

I am being facetious with my remark about "getting one", I know many of the girls have not had it easy. TT's tale of his girl's treatment by her father brings that home & she isn't alone.

Then there is the popular myth how all Thais respect katoeys as equal members of the community - many do but I see discrimination against them all over the place. From not being allowed in hotels, bars & restaurants to them not being allowed to marry or be identified as 'female', even after SRS. Incredible to any reasonable person.

[pacman]

(jimbo34 @ Jan. 06 2011,19:29) To me the answer is very simple:
Thai men are the laziest, least productive, parasites on the planet. If a thai couple want help on the farm, or to provide them with a "pension', they need to produce girls! Even when they marry, at least there's a dowry to look forward to.
Therefore no discouragement when their boys start to develop feminine tendencies.
At least a ladyboy will, at worst, help with the labouring, and at best, go off to the cities and earn 'proper' money. Not just sit under a tree drinking whisky with their mates.

Jimbo, simple or not, there is more than an element of truth in your post, one that won't sit well with some of us.

It is a sad fact that in many villages, children are seen as a valuable resource who can be used to provide for unemployed families.

And where there aren't many female babies then boys can be recruited to the cause & can be just as effective in sending money home.

I don't know how many LBs I have had to listen to complaining about needing money for her family. We have all heard them going on about it, of that I am sure.

But of course the whole concept of 'designer ladyboys' does collapse with the transgendered children of wealthy families. There does not appear to be any motivation to force change on them. Or is it some cultural thing? Someone remarked on 300 years history of katoeys in Thailand.