I'm getting married...

[Guest]

Yes Bigmick is correct, I do use the reality stick a lot in cyberland to tighten up some of the mongers if they can read between the lines but in person I lay it out absolutely hard and fast and that is very tough to take for most people!! Some of the mongers can't see that big train barreling down the track and they just get run over and demolished!! But it is their life and they can do as they wish as all of can and will do!!

Hey Reflections, If you keep up that flirtatious banter with Statuesque you will be in the "On Deck Circle" and be next in the batters box!! (where I wouldn't mind being myself)

[Looker]

(reflections @ Sep. 10 2008,09:15) I have many Filipina clients ...

Erm..what's your job??

[Guest]

His job is a flirtatious, philandering, Fillipina flousey, Fillibustering...and someone help me with the last adjective as I am all out at the moment!!

[brocklanders]

I have been practicing as an attorney in the field of immigration law in the USA for 10 years now.  Prior to that, I was a clerk for a top immigration attorney and wrote nearly 300 federal appellate briefs.  Been to the Philippines 21 times and speak rudimentary Tagalog.  Not bragging, just letting you know my background.  

1. Your marriage in the Philippines is not recognized by the church or by law in the Philippines.

2. You cannot get  a marriage visa with an ts or man into the US.  It's impossible.  You cannot get a fiance visa with a ts or man.

3. You will be unable to get a tourist visa once married.   You will be required to list yourselves as married.  At that point,your tourist visa request will be denied immediately and you will be asked to fill out a marriage visa request if the interviewer in Manila doesnt realize that your wife is a TS.

4.  Even if you call the wedding off.  You will be unable to get a tourist visa unless your wife can demonstrate that she owns a business worth at least 1 million pisos in liquid assets, can show a business license and is a home owner of a home of a value of at least 3 million pisos.   In addition, your wife will need to demonstrate that she has been an employee or stundent for 5-10 years(depending on the circumstances) and there must be at least 3 documents demonstrating each.(prevents fraud which is rampant in the Phils)

5. A Filipino TS will get stopped trying to cross the port of entry from Mexico into the USA...guaranteed.   If you try to sneak her in via your vehicle and caught...its a felony for alien smuggling and you will spend at least a year in prison with a felony permanently on your record.  The last alternative is to hire a coyote which will cost you somewhere around $20,000US.

6. If you decide to live in the Philippines and retire there.   You must understand that Filipinos take the word "extended family support" to new levels.  They run circles around Thai people.   You will be asked for loans immediately before and after the wedding by every relative within shouting distance.    You just finished paying child support?   Child support doesnt even come close to the amount you will be paying in overseas family support once you live in the Phils or if you live in the USA while they live in the Phils.

7. If your wife gets a fraudulent passport that states she is a woman and you apply for a marriage visa. Once you go to your interview in Manila, the interviewer will definately know your wife is a ts. These are employees of the US government, not the Philippines. They dont accept bribes. Once the interview finds out your wife is a ts, he/she is required to forward this information to the Philippine government and your wife could face prison time for this offense. That is where a hefty bribe of say 300,000 pisos would likely keep her out of jail.

Her relatives are going to tell you anything you want to hear because they smell a cash cow. Doesnt mean they arent good people or honest, just means they live in a poor country that doesnt necessarily value honesty.


Now if that doesnt spell it out clearly...then I dont know what to tell ya.

[Road Runner]

That's entirely clear to me!

The situation is almost exactly the same for anyone contemplating 'marrying' a Thai ladyboy.

In the UK you are better off going down the route of not getting married and bringing your tilak in on an ordinary tourist visa.

RR.

[rxpharm]

ahh, Brocklanders, thanks for the writing the facts, some of which I was attempting to explain to the OP. Somehow I get the feeling that his will disregard that and try his own scheme regardless.

[Guest]

Nice report Brock: If Recflections winds up in a Philly prison I am sure that the relatives will rally around and bribe someone to get him out pronto.....or bring him a cheese sandwich once a week and some crappy hand rolled cigs!!!

[Lefty]

Excellent post Brock. Explained much more professionally and in depth than some of the rest of us were able or willing to do for the OP, although in simpler terms he has already been told the same basic thing. I agree with rxpharm too, will the OP really listen anyway?

[Lefty]

(aperry @ Sep. 11 2008,10:33) Nice report Brock: If Recflections winds up in a Philly prison I am sure that the relatives will rally around and bribe someone to get him out pronto.....or bring him a cheese sandwich once a week and some crappy hand rolled cigs!!!

I don't think it is Reflections who wants to marry the Pinay LB, it is ohnoriceagain.

[Guest]

Hi ohnorice,

Philippine law does not recognize marriage where one spouse is trans. This is very sad but true. In 2007, a trans woman applied for a change of name and sex in her legal documents for purposes of marriage and her petition was denied after it was heard by the Supreme Court (SC). After this SC decision, another trans woman who applied for the same document change in a regional trial court in Manila was denied as well.

To get a licence to marry in the Philippines, you and your partner will have to provide the local civil registrar with original (or certified original) copies of your baptismal certificate. On the strength of this document alone, your partner will definitely not be allowed to marry, not unless her baptismal certificate states her sex is F. And if it is F, the next stumbling block is explaining her name. If her name is obviously male, the registrar will also question your application.

Many trans women in the Philippines have gone through the courts to get a legal change of name and sex in their documents but all successful cases have involved post-op women. Your partner can try this route but it will be very costly and take some time. She can apply for a change of name first through the local civil registrar but then this might out her in the process.

How I wish our laws could be on your side at this wonderful moment in your life. But the reality is that they're not. We are working to change that and hopefully time will be on our side. Be happy. Take care of each other and stay in love.

All the best,
Naomi

[bangui]

Allow me to throw in my two cents, for what they are worth. I am not at all involved in immigration law, but from my experience and personal research, Brock€™s points are all dead on. Diabolllique has also presented the reality of the situation in the Philippines. If your present girlfriend is not planning SRS, then of course the legal options she outlines for documentation are also not an option (even if those legal strategies are ever successful€¦).

Any marriage carried out in the Philippines will not provide you with any legal documentation of actually being married, thus as Brock points out, presenting yourself in that way to immigration will be an immediate visa killer regardless of the type of visa you apply for. (To be honest, even if you were married in MA, with state certification of marriage and then applied as a married couple in the Philippines, I€™m afraid the same would apply).

If you wish to show your commitment to each other, by having a ceremony in the Philippines and then consider yourselves married, you are certainly within your rights. That is a powerful statement in itself. However you will not be legally recognized as married under any jurisdiction, since you are both men and marriage between men in the Philippines is not recognized under the law.

Also, as has been pointed out, marriage between men is not recognized under US federal law (wherein immigration lies).

So where does that leave you?

Much depends on your personal goals and your vision as a couple for the future. And a lot depends on your personal financial independence (and not in the sense of your ability to pay bribes).

Here is a fairly fantastical example: You have $10 million in net worth: 1) give your girlfriend $2 million to buy a couple of properties in her name in Manila and to start a couple of viable business; 2) you move to the Philippines and spend a couple of years there, engaged in whatever activities you wish; 3) apply for a tourism visa after three years, on the strength of your girlfriend€™s personal wealth and physical ties to the Philippines; 4) spend the rest of your future shuttling between the Philippines and the US (your girlfriend using a tourist visa every time).

That one is not a realistic option for many. Here are a couple more possibilities:

1. You relocate to the Philippines for good €“ live and work there. (Again depends a lot on your personal situation).
2. You relocate and work in a jurisdiction that allows for gay marriage and/or the ability for a foreign partner to move to that jurisdiction on some sort of partner visa. (this opens up a whole new can of worms of employment visas and same sex partnership visas on which I am far, far from an expert.) Here is a list of countries that recognize either same sex marriage or civil unions: http://gaylife.about.com/od/samesexm...gaymarriag.htm
I believe that some of these countries will allow same sex partners to move to their jurisdictions, after the one person has worked under a valid work visa for a period of time. This option would of course need a good immigration/employment lawyer.
3. Brocklanders would have to help me with this next one €“ I believe that the US issues certain visas (E1/E2) for those with a high level of investment capital to start a business or who already own all or part of a US based business. This would require you to completely handover some, most, all of your personal net worth to your girlfriend, who could then start/invest in a US business (you are looking at a around a cool $1million here for starters).
4. Begin the process of helping your girlfriend get a US tourist visa and then you spend your vacations in the Philippines and she comes to the US for a couple of vacations a year. You can then think about possibly doing option 1 down the road (way down the road?).
5. The heavens open, all wars cease, poverty ends and I begin crapping diamonds from my ass, AND the US actually passes comprehensive legislation for the recognition, at the FEDERAL level, of same sex unions (call it marriage, unions, whatever) that allow for the immigration of same sex spouses.

I am not, personally, expecting option 5 any time soon.

A quick background. I have had the same TS girlfriend from Thailand for coming on, oh€¦. about a decade now. Yes, that is TEN years. I have personally experienced the difficulty of getting a tourist visa for the US (and I started the process before September 11! It is a lot harder now).

Regarding the tourist visa, option 4 €“ you MUST make sure you/she are completely prepared for the process. If the first visa application is denied, your girlfriend is unlikely to ever get one again, unless something drastic changes, like she wins the lottery.

I could write a very lengthy post on the tourist visa process and my personal experience (what longer than this one, you say!) and would be happy to if there is interest. Here is a few of the things I have learned:

1. your girlfriend must have all legal documentation in order €“ if something is a copy of an original for instance, it must be legally notarized.
2. she must have a purchased round trip ticket for a normal vacation period €“ definitely under a month, better less than two weeks.
3. properly filled out visa applications, proper passport, proper photos, etc (if none of the basics are correct they may reject her out of hand).
4. the lack of the following can very easily or likely will lead to a rejected visa:
a. Birth certificate, national legal identification if any (in addition to passport)
b. Proof of all her immediate family residing in the Philippines €“ if she is visiting you it actually helps that she has no family in the US.
c. Proof of ownership of property, investments, bank accounts, tax filings €“ basically everything and anything that show her net worth to be as high as possible.
d. Proof of education €“ get the originals double notarized if possible!
e. Proof of all employment history since finishing school, including references, professional certifications, employment contracts, etc. (and if there is a gap anywhere, there has to be a pretty good explanation ready).
f. Anything else which is able to show to the immigration officer that she will return to the Philippines and not jump ship and become an illegal in the US is paramont €“ owning a functioning business helps, although it better be a real and provable business. Her property, her personal wealth are, obviously, also key here. You must understand that every applicant from a €œthird world€ country is basically seen as a potential, nay, likely illegal immigrant. You have to put yourself in the mind of the immigration officer and look at it from their angle.
5. What you must provide:
a. Letter of invitation to visit you and why.
b. As much financial proof you can provide showing you can support her financially during the trip. I am talking lots of bank account/investment account statements, W-2 tax filings, property titles and anything else to prove your net worth. Again, copies should be legally notarized.
c. If you are really able to have the likes of Diane Feinstein write an official letter supporting your moral character/civic standing in the community it may not help a lot, but definitely won€™t hurt.
6. Finally, pray that on the day of application, your girlfriend does not meet with some hung-over immigration officer, who had his wallet stolen on the way to work, is unable to get it up and is a rabid homophobe€¦ or, even having all the proper docs and proof will mean nothing. The individual immigration officer has the power of God in the approval process. They win no points for approving a visa and will find every way possible to reject it. The process is definitely €œguilty until proven innocent€. Not necessarily good or bad, just the way of the game. The flip side is that once you do get the first tourist visa, the next, and the next and the next will be progressively easier. There is much less risk to approve a subsequent visa, for the officer, if another officer has approved one first.

My girlfriend and I went through the barricades to get her first visa (which expired the day after her ticket was booked to return to Thailand. She had to report back to the US embassy within a day of her return to prove she was back in the country, or she would have been blacklisted). Strangely the next visa was a one year multi-entry, and the next one was a ten year multi-entry. So it gets easier as it goes, provided you are successful the first go round.

Quick diversion for two potential tourist visa applicants:

Applicant A: 31 yr. old scion of a major Philippines clan (think Ayala), owns her own apartment, has $500,000 in provable net worth, went to a top PH university and then to Harvard business school, has worked for JP Morgan and then Goldman Sachs (or less fortunately for Lehman Bros!) in various capacities for the last 6 years in Manila. Has lots of international travel stamps in her passport (though strangely not yet to the US). Chance of Visa approval = 99%

Applicant B: 31 yr old from a normal family, has graduated form high school, has no or very spotty documentation of employment since then, no ownership of property, $3000 in provable net worth.
Chance of Visa approval = 30%, 15%, 10%, 5%??

To put it simply, none of your options are great ones. I am fortunate to live in Asia. I make a good living. I have taken option 4 (with the addition that I live and work in Asia). I know that it is unlikely that in my lifetime I will be able to move back to the US with my girlfriend fulltime. That is the way it is. I have built enough of a business here that sometime in the future we will be able to do option 1. I have already relocated for all intents and purposes to Asia, and within ten years hope we will spend part of the year in the US and part of the year in Asia (with lots of other travel in between!) with both of us still working or running businesses in/directed to Asia.

Last small point. Take it slow and make sure you are committed to this. It takes a lot of personal sacrifices and financial sacrifices to make this sort of thing work.

I won€™t wish you luck, because I don€™t think much luck enters into it. But if you make it work, good for you.

Wow, longest post ever!

[si geena]

Good solid post. Very useful!

[mirimark]

Dude, you wish you where getting married to your $29.99 an hour cam friend.
I don't think western union sells wedding rings over the phone bro.

[Guest]

Hey Bangui, Have you met thegame925 yet? You two could have an endless email conversation!!!! Good information and well posted!!

[Guest]

Hey Mirimark....have you got your very own patented avatar and logo now?