Down with George Bush!

[mirimark]

Any Fucking Moron can run a Country.   Here in America ?   Bro's,  its Corporations who run this country.
 Not Politicians.

Get it Right.

Money Talks,  Bullshit Walks.    Its that Simple.

 Who the hell are you going to Listen too.  Some Politician who promisise you Heath Care,  Or some Commercial  Conglomerant who promises you a good paying Job in your town.

I'll walk with the CASH ! Not the empty promises.

[JaiDee]

(seanbeag7 @ May 29 2008,01:42) but then again american history is about 200 years old compare to europe whose history is thousands of years old.

Before GW this was another reason lots of Euro's and other western countries didn't like us..... we leap-frogged past many of those countries in 200 years while they were still stuck in the stone age, and we became the strongest country on earth while they were still farting around with which bread or vino tasted the best and in the meantime getting rolled over by the Germans in 6 weeks {no names heh heh}.


But times have changed.... I still agree anti-american comments don't fit just for the sake of being mean-spirited and against all americans as a whole, it's just not fair to lump ALL yanks in with GW and his crew. But man they are making it tough for us all.

only 6 more months and we will never hear that name again except as a punchline.

[Monkey]

It annoys me when people are quick to say "USA is only 200 years old..."

Yes, as a country it might be but where did more than a few of the people come from?

Europe!

[janabiyah]

Weapons of Mass destruction???

Can anyone paint me a scenario as to what really happened here.

Our most senior politicans got it wrong, clearly they were misled and duped.

But the real question is Who misled them and why?

A beer for the best answer

[Guest]

george bush= cunt (if u can't see that you're blind)
invading iraq and many other US wars recently= evil (the so called axis of evil is just propaganda to divert from the real evil)
capitalist corporations taking over the world exploiting everyone= wrong (paying $0.25 to make a pair of sneakers/trainers sold at $150 giving the profits to a board of chairmen)
i can sort of see where osama bin laden was comming from to be honest.
a president shouldn't be rich and involved with super rich business- its obviously going to be corrupt.
capitalism in theory = freedom, but in reality we are all getting pissed on by big money making machines, and GWB quite obviously doesn't realize this- he just had the opportunity to profit from it.
he's just another guy making a few quid, that's been sucked into the system. and the system is wrong.
the world is fucked right now.
if he was given another chance for sure he'd go into nigeria or iran, thank fuck he can't do that.

[alan1chef]

JaiDee, Hitler never did anything to us directly either...but does that make him a nice guy? Of course not. I spoke to an Iraqi in the Philippines who fled Saddams Iraq and he told stories about entire families being eliminated because they spoke against Saddam. You are a typical "stick your head in the sand and just pretend all is grand" type of person. Wake up! The 9/11 attackers were living in this country for years....years under Clinton...I don't think you quite understand, really.

[blonde_havoc]

(seanbeag7 @ May 29 2008,00:50) ... he has been told that if he leaves the country to visit his family back in ireland, he will not be able to re-enter the states again.

This doesn't make any sense. Sorry to hear about that. But you do realize that it has very little to do with Bush, right? These are immigration/visa issues.

I'm not supporting Bush; I think he's the worst president of all time. But your anger here is a bit misdirected.

As for the hatred toward the first Bush and Reagan... well that's just kinda silly really. Reagan did a lot of good in the 80s. He helped fixed a lot of the problems America faced in the 70s (inflation, stagnant economy). The first Bush was not a great president, but he was a capable leader (who had zero charisma).

Even though Nixon is remembered for his scandals, he did a lot of good as well. He opened trade negotiations with China (for better or worse) and was the first American president to visit red China (people forget how huge this was). Nixon also established the EPA and was quite the environmentalist. He was unfortunate to inherit Vietnam from Johnson (something else people also forget). It will be interesting to see how our next president deals with Iraq (please god let it NOT be Obama...).

Let's try and think in more level-headed terms.

[PigDogg]

(janabiyah @ May 28 2008,16:27) Weapons of Mass destruction???

Can anyone paint me a scenario as to what really happened here.

Our most senior politicans got it wrong, clearly they were misled and duped.

But the real question is Who misled them and why?

A beer for the best answer

The Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld crowd thought it would be in the American interest, of benefit to American business, not the kid right out of high school sent to fight.

To gain support of both the American public and other allies, they used selective intelligence using the tidbits of info that supported WMD and ignoring and discouraging info that did not support their position.

But Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld got it wrong. It was not in the American interest to invade Iraq. It was not a wham bam thank you mam like Afghanistan.

Iraq was in zugzwang before the invasion with no fly zones etc. And Saddam, although no friend of the USA, provided stability to the country and therefore the region.

George Sr got it right. George Junior did not.

[azza33]

(rxpharm @ May 29 2008,00:25) Azza33, you are trying to defend the indefensible - right, he did the best he could because of the circumstances. You actually think this is an excuse to make the huge mistakes like New Orleans (nothing to do with Iraq) etc, etc, etc, etc.? Maybe you should read Scott McClellan's (former press secretary) book which is based on more reality than Paul Wolfowitz's Neocon theories, which are now shown to be based on faulty assumptions.

By the way Bush doesn't have 1000's of advisors, because the majority of advisors told him NOT to invade Iraq - he relies on his inner circle of about 5-10 senior advisors, including the worst of the lot Dick Che

Rxpham...

Im not excusing the indefensible!!

Re Iraq: Australia like US were first in to there... I have no regrets about our countries going into Iraq! At the time i think it was the right thing to do... Saddam did Iraq no favors in trying to co-operate with the UN nor dispel the myth that they were stockpiling weapons.

Most people are only looking at Iraq through the eyes of hindsight and years down the track.....i truly think most people cant remember exactly the sequence that lead to Iraq invasion.

At I'd love a few more learned opinions here as i believe the UN had authority to intervene militarily in Iraq due to violations of UN security resolutions - several i believe. (not as a argument based on 911 - i only point out 911 as i think it created an environment which lead to rash and unwise reasoning - the US became obsessed about eliminating potential threats post 911)

Thus Iraq was invaded due to violation of UN security resolutions and not just add hock as the posters seem to intimate in this board.

I mentioned learned posters as i am aware that there was debate over whether they could actually invade Iraq over this issue.

At any rate, US, UK & Australia truly believed legally they had the right to take action....

Unfortunately, a lot of people think that they went to Iraq for other reasons....

Also, most people dont know that president Clinton also order a full scale attack on Iraq at one point (not by ground troops but by aerial) and the planes were in the air and on the way to bomb Iraq for the same series of violations.

A last minute deal was brokered by Coafee Annan (sic) and then planes were literally turned around mid flight!!

So for all the people out there that may think i have no recollection... i got a lot of facts that are highly specific and relevant -- feel free to google at your leisure.

Perhaps the misconception on Iraq was more because they spent a long time in the UN trying to persuade people that Iraq had WMD and get a broader based support going. Remember China and Russia always vito anything on Iraq and thus why the prolonged debate and perhaps why a lot of people just dont realise that the coalition was acting under UN security resolution violations.

Now Rxpham, when i talk about the 1000's i wasn't being literal... I well aware of the inner circle....

And yes Dick Cheney is the worst and certainly sits up there in the Hawks camp in the whitehouse.


And i want to say again, in hindsight Iraq was a disaster, BUT it has probably stopped the US going into probably Syria and Iran up to this point in time.

[azza33]

And Saddam, although no friend of the USA, provided stability to the country and therefore the region.

George Sr got it right. George Junior did not.

You are spot on here Pigdogg... the US in gulf war I knew that to take out Saddam would destabilize the entire region and its one of the reasons they held true to the UN resolution.

Unfortunately they chose to ignore that second time around and we now we know the result.

[Torurot]

Azza, you have inaccurate "reminiscences" & selective amnesia on the UN inspectors. You NEVER had a legal right to invade Iraq and slaughter 1million civilians, displacing four million more. You "cooked" the intelligence AND you KNEW it. Don't try and rewrite history. You'd like if the tables were turned and lets see.... Indonesia invaded Australia? As for US enforcing UN resolutions, how about making Israel follow UN resolutions, because if you choose to be selective...... as the US often is, using security council veto. So don't point finger at Chine et al! Pot/Kettle

History will accurately see Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rove & others as war criminals on par with Hitler, Goebels etc. As with Kissinger these scum will be very careful about which country they fly into after the elections.

The only bright side is that "most" of the world can separate "leaders" actions from those of the general population. Most like "Americans" & America, but despise their "leaders. Same goes for Johny Howard!

[Torurot]

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/btw/watch.html

This goes into great detail how the Bush Administration
worked to sell the war to the American people. It starts
out with a press conference in which Bush calls on
specific reporters who had softball questions such as,
"How is your faith guiding you?" The whole thing, looking
back is an absolute joke. There is a lot of laughter at the
press conference even though the president was there to
talk about taking our country into war with Iraq. It is truly
disgusting but worth watching for the perspective that it
offers.

Then they go into 9/11 and the sense of nationalism and
patriotism that followed. This caused the general public to
become somewhat defensive and the Bush Admin really
took advantage of this. Any dissension began to be seen
as anti-American.

Then they talk about how unlikely it would have been that
Saddam would have accepted Al Qaida's influence in Iraq.
Press reporters overseas in the Middle East found it very
hard to believe the claims of the Bush Administration.

There were Iraqi defectors who told all kinds of stories of
questionable accuracy. Some of the stories didn't add up
but they were printed anyway because they were big news.
After the invasion, many of the stories were flatly proven
false.

Then they repeated the "weapons of mass destruction" and
"ties to terrorist organizations" and "Al Qaida" with respect
to Iraq. They repeated it over and over just as you would with
an effective advertising campaign. The Bush Admin fed this
stuff to the media through a variety of creative channels.

The UN weapons inspection reports are all available on line.
They never found anything like what the Bush Admin claimed.
Cheney shows up on Meet the Press to talk about a story
that appeared in the New York Times. The Whitehouse
essentially leaked the story and then used the story, pointing
to it as evidence of the validity of their case.

Then Condi Rice shows up on CNN talking about the "Smoking
gun that might come in the form of a mushroom cloud". Again
referencing the story that the Admin itself had leaked. The
press was manipulated by the Bush Admin to influence the
American people. Then Bush goes on to quote the "mushroom
cloud" phrase. The speechwriter who came up with the phrase
now works for the Washington Post as a columnist.

From August 2002 to March 2003 there were 140 front page
stories in the Washington Post alone, that made the case for war
with Iraq. That's a lot of repetition for only one newspaper. Most
stories that raised any questions were not front page material.
Oprah had Judith Miller (a NY Times reporter) and an Iraqi defector
on her show to talk about Iraq's WMD programs. Oprah would not
listen to a member of the audience who questioned the information.

Fox News used this whole climate to promote themselves and to
belittle anyone who disagreed. Phil Donahue claimed that he was
told that he had to have two conservative viewpoints for every liberal
viewpoint.

In October of 2002 there were 100,000 people in WA DC to protest
the war. One of the biggest anti-war demonstrations since Viet Nam
and it really wasn't given much press.

There was credible intelligence information from the CIA that was
counter to what the Bush Admin was peddling. There was some
effort on the part of the Bush Admin to silence this information.
They don't go into the Valerie Plame matter but that is related to
this attempt to silence dissension.

Then there was the follow up UN inspections. Some 400 inspections
failed to turn anything up. Then Colin Powell appeared before the UN
with half truths and more rhetoric. Then there was the British "intelligence"
that came from a student's thesis (complete with typos) lifted off the
Internet. The British media exposed this but the American media
continued to promote the Bush Admin agenda. There were a series of
newspaper articles that cited Powell's presentation to the UN calling it
compelling and clear and concise and a host of other laudatory adjectives.

MSNBC cancelled Phil Donnahue's show because he was dissenting.
There was a memo that was discovered that talked about the reasons
for letting him go. It referred to all other networks waiving the flag while
Donnahue presented a difficult challenge or something to that effect.

There really was no credible evidence of the Bush Admin's claims but
the media pretty much failed to state that at any point. The media was
used by the administration to make a case for war and even today there
has been little self scrutiny on the part of the media.

So the media is complicit in getting America into war with Iraq. No two
ways about it. And even today, there is little in the news to question
why we are there or how we could be spending so much money there.

This is a very strange time that we live in.

[JaiDee]

(alan1chef @ May 29 2008,12:05) You are a typical "stick your head in the sand and just pretend all is grand" type of person.   I don't think you quite understand, really.

classic      

right-wing lunatics are always good for a morning wake-up laugh!


Man, I just wish I could ''understand", please teach me, Alan!!

[Torurot]

Now your awake I wasn't suggesting that the US invade Burma (or anywhere else). I had "forgotten" they had oil, I knew about the gas pipelines. It's just the "logic" the US used/uses about WMD, "regime" change, "democracy" etc etc. It's just plain bogus. Your there for money, nothing else. Grunts and innocent Iraqis are paying the price. And for our redneck readers, if "someone" invaded the good olde USA, would you fight em? Would it be your "right", by fair means or foul? Well if you think "Right on" then same same for Iraqis to use any measure to remove the "great Satan" from THEIR soil!

Pity the US didn't suffer from regime change, electoral reform, and a dose of real democracy!

[JaiDee]

your opinions are OK with me T, as are anyone elses up here

 but some clown telling me "I don't understand" when I know as much about current events as anyone up here is just plain weird ...... everyone has opinions on all these topics and we all feel the way we do, it's hard to change people's minds on this crap, as RX said religion is the same way and also the death penalty, abortion, etc.....many things we'd all disagree about I am sure. But they are [hopefully] well-thought-out positions and we all have researched enough to state those I would say.

So for some guy to say "you really don't understand" is pretty funny, I'd love to debate him publicly on any issue.