Down with George Bush!

[azza33]

(pacman @ May 30 2008,01:39) The US administration was taken for a ride by exiled Iraqis who would tell any lie to get back at Saddam Hussein.

add the suggestion of WMDs that could be turned against the US, incomplete reports from the UN weapons inspection team - you have all the ingredients for a catastrophe.

Once Saddam's enemies knew what the US wanted to hear in order they would overthrow their sworn enemy, they made up their stories accordingly.

Hans Blix could not confirm weapons in Iraq but when he spoke of sites that had hurriedly been emptied, of evidence of precursor chemicals being found there wasn't much more that needed to added.

can lead the world into this most destabilising conflict, getting wrong every strategic decision & bankrupting the largest economy in the process will go down in history as the stupidest way ever to run a war.

Great stuff Pacman... your memory is 100% spot on... Throw in the Paranoia i talked about early and the result we have is the most pointless ongoing loss of life going around....

Remember too the WAR actually finished a long time back, this is US in a situation they have no idea how to control or win... its a civil war, has been for years, they are too embarassed to admit it because effectively they are responsible, along with UK, Australia and a couple of other countries- it was never meant to turn out this way in their minds and complete lack of planning....


And the irony is folks its about oil and war to make America rich bla bla bla...

Well guess what.... you are spot on.. this battle is bankrupting the US and rapidily

The booming US sharemarket etc.... its all rubbish.. never happended in a sense... if you currency adjust the US market to the Pound, Euro or AUD then US has lost half its value of more over the past 10 years....

And surging oil prices, well yes its in US dollars and its ugly, but most ugly for the old US as most other major currencies have appreciated so much during this period that is gives some form of cushioning effect.

For the us oil has risen 6 times or more in cost (20-120)
But for example in AUD its gone from (44 - 125)

[seamus]

Fuck Me, I go away for a few days & Miss all the fun, glad I did ! We may all be into ladyboys in some shape or form, but one thing I have learned on this forum, We are miles apart when it comes to politics.
All I can say is, as a Young Irish kid growing up in London, the only other Place I wanted to live, apart from back home was USA & Most of My young Irish Mates were the same.Now I want to live in the far east, dont know why though



Seamus the

[azza33]

Yup .. its been interesting...

Doesn't hurt for us guys to think with our heads instead of our dicks once in a while... and have a good discussion about world issues.

[Torurot]

Azza, your post [108] & list was great. Now explain, how you go from that logical & comprehensive list, to then agree with an illegal invasion which has killed and maimed, & displaced close to the MAGIC figure of SIX MILLION. I'll leave it as an exercise for your imagination as the the significance of six million. There's another group whose name we dare not mention who uses that number as an excuse for everything.

As for that bitch Allbright, she said and I quote/paraphrase cause I can't be arsed looking it up "that killing 500,00 Iraqi children was worth it and I would do it again". That's how low "America" has sunk. How about "not in my name", for the USA members of this list. How about if it was 500,000 US American children. You think she would say it then?

Just following orders was NOT an excuse at Nuremberg!

Check out www.antiwar.com and warincontext.com for more.

Another usefull site is theoildrum.com

[Torurot]

Pacman, the USA was NOT, ["The US administration was taken for a ride by exiled Iraqis"]. As has come out, the Administration KNEW EXACTLY what was going on, as proved by the Downing Street Memo. Rove et al had this war planed, and ready to go LONG before 911. That the US congress/Senate/Parliament whatever is so inept and corrupt as to "vote" for war shows how far "democracy" has fallen in the USA. Follow the money, only the "plan" fell flat as the Iraqi (US imposed) "govt" so far hasn't voted for the US drafted "give us all your oil" bill that was initially drafted IN ENGLISH. There was an attempt to slip it through like the US lot voted for the "Patriot" act, sight unseen, with no time to read or debate. Fortunately Sistani,? and a couple of other "radicals" rocked the boat enough that it didn't go through. So now the US is stuck. If it wasn't for all the dead it would be a comedy. Support the troops, withdraw them now while they still live. Remember Fulluja!

The US has never understood Tribalism. It started when they tried to kill all the indians, and hasn't got any better since.

[azza33]

(Torurot @ May 30 2008,19:15) Azza, your post [108] & list was great. Now explain, how you go from that logical & comprehensive list, to then agree with an illegal invasion

See point 6 and 9 ... there were countries that believed that under UN resolutions breaches something could be done.

Seriously Torurut, i enjoy good discussion on hard topics, but i can't understand you sometimes. Clearly you know my list is a reasonably accurate depiction of events, yet you somehow choose to IGNORE my very specific reference to UN resolution breaches... I can assure you this was the very basis of legal argument over the legitimacy of the war

I have no idea in Europe or the US how the argument was put across... here in Oz they were pretty explicit that this was the legal basis behind agreeing to go into Iraq.

Hence my call to discuss that very point... ffs i am no legal expert i can only write what i was aware of - go off and seek some legal opinions on this and get back to the forum.... emotional outburst do little to convince me that you want to understand the essence of my point.

Now here is an interesting theory i am prepared to consider...

Saddam and Iraq made a mockery on the UN power for a long period and towards the end was rocking the very foundation of the strength of the UN....

Perhaps when you ask what as it all about?

Well perhaps the US wanted to show everyone the UN still has strength and determination to get the job done.

To fail on Iraq would mean the end of the UN.

[PigDogg]

(azza33 @ May 30 2008,04:39) my very specific reference to UN resolution breaches... I can assure you this was the very basis of legal argument over the legitimacy of the war[/b]

So the war was "legal".

It still (with hindsight) was clearly not in the USA interest to go to war. Stupid decision. The world is now more dangerous as a result of the legal invasion.

And certainly not in the interest of the Iraqi man in the street that has friends and family killed or maimed. GWB says the Iraqi people love "freedom". Bullshit. Most prefer stabililty and order and were better off under the Saddam regime.

Had Gore been president I doubt that we'd be in Iraq. Sons and daughters, now six feet under, would instead be celebrating Christmas and Ramadan with their families.

Helluva job Bushie!

A proud that thinks Bush is an a-hole.

[Torurot]

Koffi Annan the previous head honsho of the UN said approximately "that the US/British/Ozzie invasion of Iraq WAS ILLEGAL" under UN rules and charter which as you know the US helped to draft. There are elements of the the US administration/govt that despise the UN and actively work to undermine it. Bolton the previous US representative on the UN was the most hated "diplomat" ever. No one could work with him. Go backwards to the UNSCOM. The US told them to get out or risk being bombed in the invasion. How do you think the Iraqis knew when the US was coming? The US was and is VERY selective about UN resolutions it supports (or ignores). I call that hypocricy, not sure what you call it.

How can you say that Iraq was breaching resolutions when it WAS cooperating (as never before) with UNSCOM, which is exactly what the US demanded it do. Since when did the US & Britain have the right to UNILATERALLY imposed no fly zones over Iraq. etc etc etc.

As for your support of the deputy sheriff. The average Ozzie bleeder saw through that bullshit and voted him & his govt out by significant margin. You went on an illegal invasion of a sovereign country WELL AGAINST popular Ozzie opinion.

[azza33]

(PigDogg @ May 30 2008,20:01)

(azza33 @ May 30 2008,04:39) my very specific reference to UN resolution breaches... I can assure you this was the very basis of legal argument over the legitimacy of the war[/b]

So the war was "legal".

It still (with hindsight) was clearly not in the USA interest to go to war. Stupid decision. The world is now more dangerous as a result of the legal invasion.

[seanbeag7]

Has any of you guys seen FAHRENHEIT 9/11 recently, it gives a good account about the bush versus saddam.

Next time i ever think about doing one of these threads again i swear i will first.

[azza33]

The legality of the Iraq War has been widely debated since the United States, Great Britain, Italy and several other countries launched the 2003 invasion of Iraq. US and UK officials have argued that existing UN Security Council resolutions related to the first Gulf War and the subsequent ceasefire (660, 678), and to later inspections of Iraqi weapons programs (1441), had already authorized the invasion.[1] Critics of the invasion have challenged both of these assertions, arguing that an additional Security Council resolution, which the US and UK failed to obtain, would have been necessary to specifically authorize the invasion.

Former UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan said in September 2004 that: "From our point of view and the UN Charter point of view, it [the war] was illegal."

The Secretary-General's personal opinion is not that of the United Nations Organization as a whole


Just thought i'd add some context to my waffle...

Non bias and putting both sides of the argument up.

[Torurot]

seanbeag7, No reason to shoot yourself, it's turned out to be a pretty reasoned (mostly) thread with some good points, but it's interesting to see how people see recent history quite differently, and often quite inaccurately. Some are prepared to give the modern Hitler (Bush) a hell of a lot of slack! That fucker and his handlers deserve shooting as the war criminals they are. They knew EXACTLY what they were doing, perhaps they didn't expect it to turn to custard but THEY KNEW! There's a certain perception in the west that "people not like us" are stupid. Guess the "joke" is on them!

[Torurot]

Azza, don't you think for something as important and as serious as war that the US would have sought complete clarity in the UN? After all it had the time, but clearly not the inclination. Both Russia and China told them not to do it. Annan made that statement (illegal war) on behalf of the UN. It was not his "personal opinion." The US & Britain dissented.

[azza33]

Well "problem" was China and Russia and even France were not going to allow the motion for the invasion and so the US & UK decided not to pursue it anymore because they knew it was a dead in the water, despite the breach of 1441. The UN was becoming like a dog chasing its own tail.

Hence the reason to bypass the almost farcical UN- I even posted the team america pisstake of the UN here... Hans Blix saying they gonna write a nasty letter.... because thats all the UN was becoming.... all bark and no bite.

Now if 911 did not occur and if the US had not been so Paranoid post that event, i suspect we would not be having this discussion and more reasoned minds would have pursued other avenues.

However, the Hawks (Cheney, wolferwitz, and rummsfeld (god he talked some shit!! ) took control and the moderates like Powell were pushed to the side and their voice of reason quashed.

I agree the US should have engaged in other methods, but everything rolled perfectly into place at that point in history to create what turned out to be the biggest mess since Vietnam.


At the end of the day, you don't sit on the ant hill digging up the nest! And especially with the type of individuals that were in the White house at that time - we have all seen the outcome. Both Bin Laden and Saddam seriously misjudged the inner minds of the US government and their resolve.

[azza33]

By the way i cant wait to get to and shag some sexy ladyboys